Canadian Originals is a series by Will Chernoff featuring exclusive long-form interviews with Cellar Music artists from Canada. In this edition of this series, Will talks to saxophonist Jacob Chung about his upcoming album The Sage (release date: November 15, 2024), which features New York City mainstays Vincent Herring and Joe Farnsworth. Jacob moved to New York when he graduated from the University of Toronto to the Manhattan School of Music; this weekend he travels to Vancouver for the first time to play Frankie's Jazz Club and other shows.
Will is a bassist and a writer at the Vancouver jazz website Rhythm Changes. He spoke to Jacob by videocall on October 18, 2024.
WILL CHERNOFF: Jacob, thank you for joining me. You have been in New York for a little bit now, and that's been a big part of your recent musical work and development. So where am I finding you right now? Is it somewhere in the city of New York area?
JACOB CHUNG: Yeah, that's right. I'm in my apartment in Harlem, 148th and Broadway, chilling in my little room. It's like the size of a walk-in closet, but this is where the practicing gets done. This is where I do a lot of stuff [laughs].
WC: Yeah, so we first encountered each other when you put out Epistle, your first album, in 2022. At your age, in your early 20s, a lot can happen in two years. Can you just paint a little bit of a picture of where you feel like you were at in general, in life, on the instrument too. If you rewind two years ago and you think about how you're feeling right now, what you're up to right now, what comes to mind?
JC: That's a tough one! Two years ago I was still in Toronto, and I was just out of school. I recorded that record with a grant I got through the Oscar Peterson Foundation. The thing about Toronto is it's a lot smaller, and for whatever reason there is this Idea that you should be an artist, you should have your own band, you should have your own thing. Not that I'm not going for that now, I'm trying to have my own band in my own concept and all that.
It's hard to explain. In New York, when I got here, I didn't work for an entire year, partly because of my visa, but partly because it's just so hard to get into this city. And so the shift becomes, how do I become a working musician as fast as possible? It becomes less about the artistry of the music and more about the skills of the trade. I had to learn a lot of tunes, and I had to learn how to play tempos. I had to learn a lot of different stuff. I still have to learn how to double, I still haven't gotten very far on that [laughs].
My perspective changed: what did I find? I found a lot of musicians playing actual real bebop, which is crazy. I found that I was actually responsible for everything Charlie Parker had ever recorded, which is crazy. Some deep cuts like “Charlie's Wig”, I never thought people would actually play that song, and then I heard Pasquale [Grasso, guitarist] play it. That's very overwhelming at first, but I got some great mentorship from some great musicians, like Vincent Herring. He told me that my only responsibility truly in this music is to play the saxophone the way I want to hear it be played. And that's really stuck with me.
WC: So you're talking about these relatively obscure tunes. People would call them, and that surprised you, that there's a lot of tunes that you're expected to know or at least be ready for?
JC: Yeah, depending on the hang, you know what I mean? There's no such thing as an obscure tune. It's just what are you and your friends playing, and what are your elders playing. Obscure, but stuff that I'd never even dreamed that anybody would even call in Toronto. Yeah.
WC: That's an interesting observation, because even if you devoted yourself to trying to master every tune that people play in Toronto, then it's going to be a different set of tunes when you show up there, right?
JC: Absolutely. Yeah.
WC: Yeah. So Vincent Herring, obviously on the album, you're playing left and right side, you're playing side by side, so there's stuff to talk about there. But how did it come to be him who was the pivotal mentor in New York, and what was it like at first when you moved and you started studying with him?
JC: Yeah, so I mean I met him right away almost, because he was my teacher at MSM [Manhattan School of Music]. Yeah, I think we just had a mutual understanding right away. It's so much easier when you and your teacher like the same music. That is like more than half the battle, that's maybe 80% of the battle. Because then, you can trust their advice [laughs]. Yeah, he used to have sessions at his house on Sundays. It became a real community hub for me. It's where I'd meet other students, and students that he taught maybe a few years ago or he taught at other schools. We would all get together at his place on Sundays, and he’d cook for us. It became a really important place for me in my first few years here in New York. He was always so kind. He was always honest, but he was very encouraging, and I think he sensed I needed that at that time.
He threw some work my way. I need to make rent, so that was really important for me. When Cory asked me who my dream band would be, I said Farns [Joe Farnsworth], and then I said Vincent Herring. Partly because he has an iconic sound, and I thought it'd be such a trip to hear his sound on my music. That was the idea.
WC: I want to go to Joe Farnsworth, but first, this feeling you described, that's “Vincent's Place”!
JC: Yes, yeah! That's correct.
WC: That's the feeling behind the inspiration for the title of that tune. And possibly also the vibe of the tune itself, but that's what you're talking about when you have “Vincent's Place”, that title.
JC: Yeah.
WC: Got it. That's awesome. Okay, Joe Farnsworth, where do you connect with him, what's it like playing with him? What do you want to say with him?
JC: I would go and hear him anytime he was at Smoke or Smalls, and I'd introduce myself every time. I think he would forget every time who I was, but that's okay, because we made a record [laughs]. My first time playing with him was, somebody got sick, they just come back from tour. And so Joe needed a band.
I played with him at the Django, what a crazy experience, I'd never played with him, and so we're all there 30 minutes earlier, whatever, and chilling in the green room. Joe gets there just in time, he goes up and fiddles with the drums, he gets everything set up, and we still haven't spoken a word. We all get on stage, and the Django announcement is starting: turn off your cell phones, all that, enjoy the show. We still have no idea what we're gonna play. And he goes, “You guys know ‘Lover’?” And I go, “Yes,” and then he just rips into a drum solo. It ends up being [a super-fast tempo]. That was my very first experience with Joe. What I realized on that stage is, you gotta play real strong with some of your elders like that. He is a master drummer. He'll throw [stuff] at you that you just have to live with and cope with, and you have to be strong.
WC: On the record, it's amazing. It's not only the force he brings from the instrument, but also the production style, it lends itself to some real classic-sounding moments. There's some real Art Blakey-sounding stuff that he does on there. There's some real Max Roach trading moments that happen on there when you get into trading. And then the rest of the time, when he busts into these vamps and when he switches a feel or something, or when he goes over the bar lines, it’s so him. But he is putting everything on display throughout your album. It's so sick [laughs].
JC: Yeah, and that's the sort of energy I really wanted to capture. He was really a catalyst for so many risks that I took personally on the album in my playing, and that's a beautiful thing, because he had the courage and the willingness to take those sort of risks in the studio.
WC: So because you made this album a two-saxophone album with Vincent Herring, I imagine maybe you haven't had too many chances to do that with him in a performance or recording professional situation. Like, yeah, you studied with him, but had you actually performed with a band and played tunes like that in a higher-stakes situation with Vincent Herring before?
JC: That was one of my first occasions, and I'm so thankful for the opportunity, because it was a lot of fun. I'm so grateful that he actually took the time to learn my music. If it was just tunes, that's different. But somebody like Vincent Herring learned my original music! That is insane to me, continues to be insane.
WC: And he just crushes it too. My favourite – I don’t know if it's gonna be my favorite track at the end, but – the first track that grabbed me at the beginning is “Thompson's Pulpit”. Which I think is appropriate because that's a single, right, that was chosen from the album.
But he just destroys that tune, and so do you. You have that two-horn head thing where you're moving up and down the harmony while he's above. That's just a good fit. I really dug how you presented that tune and that arrangement.
JC: Thanks. Thank you, yeah. That was a lot of fun.
WC: So what does that title refer to?
JC: When I was in Toronto I, was hopping around a bunch of different churches, trying to find a good fit for myself. There was this one church with a pastor… well, so I grew up Catholic, and that's a very specific thing. And this pastor at this church, his name was Reverend Thompson, and he had this fire-and-brimstone way of preaching. I had never heard of that, I'd never encountered that in my life. And that just shook me so hard that I had to write a tune about it [laughs].
WC: It's funny that tune on the album goes before “Jeannine”. It was an interesting experience to me. I want to get there maybe with another stop on the way, because it's all originals by you except for two tunes, which is the ballad “Embraceable You”.
And then Duke Pearson, “Jeannine”.
Why did you choose those two tunes?
JC: Yes, so Vincent played with Nat Adderley for a long, long time, and they used to play tunes like “Jeannine”. I thought it would be really meaningful for me to play “Jeannine” with Vincent Herring. It's like I'm trying to insert myself into whatever branch of jazz history this is [laughs]. That was the idea. And then originally, “My Aspiration” was going to be a ballad, and we rehearsed it that way. But then in the studio, Joe said, hey, what if we did it like this? And so it became like a Cedar Walton samba, like “Naima”. And so we kept it that way, and we needed a ballad for the record, and so we just came up with an old chestnut: “Embraceable You.”
WC: Nice. The reason why I made the point about the track sequence, “Thompson's Pulpit”, and the way that “Jeannine” presents itself is – they're not at the same tempo or anything, but – I do feel like your “Thompson's Pulpit” playing with Vincent, the role the horns play in the arrangement is very similar to the way that “Jeannine” works. And the way that a lot of the Jazz Messengers-ish, the way that style of writing goes, I do feel like that. And you even said just now, inserting yourself into the timeline and trying to be a part of it – I feel like that's your “Jeannine” kind of thing.
JC: That’s, oh man! To be compared to “Jeannine”, thank you so much. That's crazy. But yeah, I mean That was definitely the vibe: the Messengers kind of hard bop.
WC: Yeah, and then you have a bunch of uptempo playing that's also a lot of fun. You close with “Dim Sum”. That's a barn burner.
That's an interesting angle of it as well. Is it just when you get a chance to just let it rip with these guys, with Vincent Herring and Joe Farnsworth – and with your [other] bandmates, who I'm gonna ask you about in a second too.
JC: Yeah, that was definitely a Farnsworth tempo [laughs]. Yeah, we did a few takes of that one and then at some point we were like, maybe this is too fast. What if we just took it down for one take? And he refused. He went, no, no! It's almost there! We’re right there. And so we ended up squeezing this one out.
WC: What do you think? Was it the right decision [laughs]?
JC: Yeah, definitely. I mean, there it is again. Joe taking risks, just being the catalyst for something really cool.
WC: Yeah, it shines through. Let's talk about the piano and the bass element of this band, because we haven't gotten there yet. And this is great, because Joe Farnsworth is not joining you in Vancouver when you're coming here, Vincent Herring – I mean, I heard him in Vancouver last year with the Heavy Hitters, but he's not joining your band in Vancouver this year. But your piano player and your bass player, they are, and they're on the record. Tell me about your playing relationship with these two people.
JC: Oh, man. Tyler [Henderson, piano] and Caleb [Tobocman, bass] have become some of my closest friends through music, and I just can't say enough good things about them. They're really, I think, some of the best young musicians out there. They're definitely rising stars. Tyler has his own trio with Caleb and Hank [Allen-Barfield, drums], who I'm bringing, and they're gonna record for Cory while we're here.
I met Caleb at school. He was one of the few musicians at MSM who were interested in swinging, because it's kind of a modern school, whatever that means. And I met Tyler through Caleb, and we'd play quite a lot. We got off on the right foot real quick, and it's been nothing but fun since.
WC: Yeah. You are playing with trio, a unit who already have a thing together.
JC: Yes, and I have to find myself within that because they have their own [thing], they've played so much together. They have their own musical relationships with each other, so I have to fit myself in that.
WC: That'll be great when you come and you get to play at least four times that I'm aware of: Hermann's in Victoria, Frankie's twice, and then Squamish, BC as well. That's your leg of the tour that I'm aware of, right?
JC: Yes.
WC: And you said you've never been to BC?
JC: I only just saw the Pacific Ocean for the first time two weeks ago! This is so nice [laughs] to be able to travel and play music. It's kind of the dream,
WC: So where were you then for your Pacific Ocean experience, where was that?
JC: I met Ken Peplowski doing Tribeca Jazz Institute, and he brought me out to Portland, Oregon. But we went over to Newport, Oregon, I believe it was, to do a jazz festival. So that was a lot of fun.
WC: Okay, Portland was your first. Alright, cool. California, TBD. Seattle, TBD.
JC: [Laughs] Yeah, I’ll have to book some shows!
WC: Yeah. that part of it for you: does that intimidate you? Does that excite you? The overall aspect of being a leader, is it a role that you're comfortable in? This is your second album as a leader, you've gotten a chance to play as a side person a bunch and as a leader a bunch too. How comfortable do you feel in the leader’s role,and all the different things that you've been exposed to that you have to do?
JC: Yeah, I mean it's so much easier being a sideman, that's for sure. In terms of being comfortable, maybe I am more comfortable being a sideman, because I don't have to deal with as much. But when the opportunity arises to make a record under your own name or play a gig under your own name, that is a real privilege. I try my best.
And with this tour, I've never really led a tour like this. So I'm hoping that my friends will be gracious with me, as I will definitely screw something up along the way. But I think you learn by doing, and it's not like I can be on the road with a band 365 days out of the year anymore, those days are gone. I just have to throw myself into it. The same thing can be said about the move to New York; I just had to throw myself into it and see what happens, and screw up a bunch along the way. Yeah.
WC: You have to.
JC: Mm-hmm.
WC: Who else is part of your New York story right now, in terms of what's happening for you, whose names are not affiliated with this record that you might want to bring up? There could be lots, but I'm just curious some of the other people that you're working with right now or playing with, hanging with.
JC: Yeah, there's some elders that have been so generous to me. Grant Stewart and Chris Byars and Ken Peplowski. Stefano Doglioni, Pasquale Grasso... man, I hope I'm not forgetting anybody [laughs]. Yeah, and some friends. I moved here with my good friend Brenon Parmar, who's a great alto player from Toronto, and he's making the scene, he's playing a bunch. Who else? There's some great saxophonists coming down the barrel: Adam Stein, Brandon Suarez, Daniel Cohen, Connor MacLeod. And some great trumpet players as well: David Sneider. Austin Ford, Mason Mallard... Yeah, it just keeps going [laughs]. I'd be sitting here for way too long.
WC: Yeah, it doesn't have to be exhaustive. We know that there's so many more people in a scene that you can possibly get, right? So it makes sense.
JC: Yeah. Change happens so quickly here. Even in the last two years, things have changed, and it's fun to reminisce. I think that's maybe the special thing about this city, is that it's just always changing so quick.
WC: Yeah.
JC: And every September, there's a million new faces as well. People come for school. Hopefully I can last here, but we'll see.
WC: So that's the goal: as long as you're staying in place and, like you said, as long as you're making a scene, then you're good.
JC: Yeah. Yeah, truly.
WC: You can punt on this if you want to keep it obscure, but I'll close now with this: who or what is represented by “The Sage”?
JC: Oh! Man, it's kind of a broad thing. It's like an ode to all my elders, all the people that have helped me. But then also, I had a teacher at University of Toronto. He was like 85 years old, but he had this crazy energy and this quest for knowledge. His name is Father Daniel Donovan. So that was “The Sage”.
WC: Okay, so it is a specific real-life person!
JC: Yeah, usually is! All my stuff usually is pretty specific.
WC: Yeah, and it's also funny how earlier you said, Epistle, I felt like I had to do my own thing. And yet you still contributed six compositions to this album [laughs].
JC: Yeah, well all these compositions are around three,…four years old though. And so I thought, okay, if I don't record them, nobody's gonna record them [laughs].
WC: Oh! Okay, that is an interesting detail. I see. So the original compositions part of this record, it did still come from that same period of time where you were feeling like it was time for you to do your own thing.
JC: Yes. I just happen to really like these songs that I wrote, so I thought I should record them.
WC: Gotcha. Yeah. Thank you for bringing joyous music to the table, and you will to the stage as well in less than a month here. I appreciate your time for this chat, thanks for joining me.
JC: Thank you, Will. That was a lot of fun.