Canadian Originals is a series by Will Chernoff featuring exclusive long-form interviews with Cellar Music artists from Canada. In this edition of this series, Will delivers the second part of his talk with multi-instrumentalist John Lee. In part one, John discussed his upbringing, his education at the Berklee College of Music, and the road to his debut on our label, The Artist (2022). Now, he talks about latest album for Cellar, Second Wind (release date: July 5, 2024) featuring Peter Washington and Kenny Washington and about recording on piano with Christian McBride, Chris Potter, and Carl Allen at Rudy Van Gelder's studio.
Will is a bassist and a writer at the Vancouver jazz website Rhythm Changes. He spoke to John by videocall on August 29, 2024.
WILL CHERNOFF: You said in the notes for Second Wind [...] “Everything that sums up my style of piano playing comes from my favourite modern heroes, Benny Green and Bill Charlap.” You also dropped Eric Reed's name earlier, and it's funny because now we have Benny Green, Eric Reed, and Bill Charlap all coming to Vancouver to play solo piano, presented by Cory and Frankie's. But you mentioned those two in the context of Second Wind, because you are playing with Peter Washington on bass and Kenny Washington on drums. Would you like to talk about records by those two piano players, or the seeds of your inspiration from those masters who you've gotten to know and play with now?
JOHN LEE: Yeah, sure. So my favourite recording from each of those piano players is definitely Benny Green's Testifyin’! Live at the Village Vanguard. 1992. The other one is also Bill Charlap Live at the Village Vanguard. ‘06, actually. Man, when I heard that music – I would say that every single artist, no matter how creative they are, has an idea in their head of what perfect music should sound like, and we go through a process of trying to find this in our world. I think that we’re all big critics in the deepest of our hearts, like when we listen to music there are things even in our favourite music where we almost go, Oh, I wish that this wasn't in there. Or, I wish that this was different. But you try to find something that is the most perfect music that you can possibly imagine.
This goes into, also, styles of playing, and all these kinds of things where you're like, I just know it's somewhere out there. For me, bass, it was Christian McBride. I heard Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen first, and I was like, man, this is super-close to the most perfect thing I've ever heard in my life, as far as the bass playing goes. But there's just something in the tone and the way he plays, me being such a harsh 20-year-old critic of the music... but everyone should have these thoughts.
It's actually very important to have these thoughts. You have to understand how great they are, and you also have to understand where your true feelings lie about these things. I was like, that's so close. Then I found Ray [Brown] and I was like, man, Ray is so close, but it's just not articulate and fancy enough for my musical taste. Then I found Christian McBride and I was like [...] not even just the way he plays the bass, but even the ideas he plays,it's almost like this is a reincarnation of something in your head of what you think perfect playing should be. I've always tried to be super honest with myself and find that within musicians that I love.
I would say that Benny Green, someone like Bill Charlap, these are people that sort of fall under that category for me. When I first heard their music, especially these specific recordings that I heard of them... I was like man, this is perfect. I have always been somebody that just hyper-focuses on the stuff that I love, unapologetically, and I just pursue that.
I think that as a young musician, sometimes you can get a little bit confused, because you see everyone doing different things at a high level. Especially somewhere like Berklee, you hear so many things being done at a high level that you're like, Oh, I want to do that now, because I just heard that at a high level. Oh, I kind of want to do that now. But I've always had a pretty strong idea of [how] my perfect music that’s out there somewhere. And when I first heard those two artists, it was the closest thing that I could imagine to [it].
Especially at that time, I was so obsessed with piano trio. I still am. I was like, this is perfect. I run with that. Who are their drummers? Who are their bass players? What makes this formula happen?
You are basically an original version of your influences. I would say that for what I do on the piano, I just think of those guys, even though I don't really sound like those guys. I might sound [like I’m] aesthetically going for the same thing-ish as those guys, but we all talk with a different voice. We all have different vocabulary and all these kinds of things. But I would say when you talk about music, especially in the jazz world, we're all just trying to set vibes anyways. So they are the vibe that I think of in my head of when it comes to perfect piano trio music.
When it came time to do Second Wind, there was actually a part of me that was like, do I even know what I'm doing? That was actually 90 percent of it. But the other 10 percent was, man, this is everything you've been waiting for. It's whatever your influences are, whatever you're going to do the best at. You have the support of Kenny and Peter Washington, who are on all those recordings that you are completely influenced by. There's a difference, sometimes, between when you get to work with an artist who, frankly, you get a little more into later after you've had the opportunity to work with them. Then there are some artists that are your childhood heroes. And when you get to work with them, it's like on some other level [...] these are people who mean something to me. That made that session a lot easier, because I'm like, okay, man, it's time for you to record your piano trio recording. Time to bring everything you got. Oh, by the way, we'll just give you Peter and Kenny Washington behind you. How will you do any better? Who else do you want in those seats instead? It's like, oh, okay, you set me up for the best possible case scenario to just let my influences come out.
I think I liked that recording [Second Wind]. I have to wait a few more years to really see. Especially a couple of the tracks, I intentionally tried to make them a little bit more picture-perfect from start to finish, which is a sort of an aesthetic in the music that I really enjoyed about some of those artists that we're talking about. All killer, no filler.
My favourite tracks off that recording are almost more in the composition rather than, here's a little bit of the head and everything in the middle is what matters. But rather just like the whole thing.
WC: The arrangement.
JL: Yeah, the arrangement, exactly, and the conciseness for normal human intake.
I like “Why Was I Born?”:
I like “Moonlight in Vermont”:
I think “It's a Blue World” turned out pretty well:
I think the “Young at Heart” turned out pretty good as well:
WC: I was gonna say that one.
JL: Yeah, it's good. That's literally just ripped off of Frank Sinatra's arrangement. So that intro and everything, that's all the original Sinatra recording part. But to be honest, I think that in anything that I do, I like that quality or that element about music. There's a part of me that just likes the stuff that sounds good and when you don't have to be a genius to figure out that it sounds good.
On that recording you would be surprised to know how hard that I went with Sheldon [Zaharko, engineer] on trying to get the timbre of everything correct. It's not necessarily just about the musical content. It's about how the piano sounds and how the drums sound, and all these things that make up all of that specialness. I do like how that recording turned out, especially sonically as well. There's a couple arrangements there that are one-chorus bangers [...]
I actually just heard a little Ray Brown interview not that long ago about people talking about him and being like, “Hey, like your band is super arranged. Do you like that?” And he was basically like, I spent like the first 50 years of my life basically getting together with the boys and being like, Yeah, just like whatever happens. And then you just play tunes and do all that stuff.
When it came time for him to do his own group, he wanted something where there were like rules and restrictions in how he wanted to do things. Especially when he got the younger guys in his band – young Benny Green, young Jeff Hamilton, young Greg Hutchinson, and all these people – you can hear. Someone might argue with me on this, but if you listen to a Ray Brown Trio recording with someone like Benny or Greg Hutchinson, you would notice that Ray plays in a way that's a little bit like, this is my band. But when he has the early version of the trio where Gene Harris is in the band, he plays in such a way that's a little bit more like, I'm a team player.
There's all these sorts of different ways that the personality of some of these musicians come out as well, depending on what kind of situation they're in. I would say that on Second Wind, I was definitely a lot more subdued in my decision-making process – even in my improvisation and even in my compositional choices – than I would have been, if I was playing with my trio with Graham Villette and Kosma Busheikin. Those are all just adaptations within the music; it's something that you can't change. It's just something you have to feel out on the day-of. And that day was crazy. I met, played, and recorded with them all on the same day, so that's a tough task.
WC: And it was here in Vancouver.
JL: Here in Vancouver.
WC: Yeah, that's incredible. Peter Washington always has a wonderful bass sound, but I think like you were saying about the post-production, the bass sound that he has on Second Wind is really interesting. It's really acoustic, it's really roomy, and I really dig it.
JL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not right up in your face, right?
WC: Yeah.
JL: Yeah, it blends it all together a little bit. I like that.
WC: Yeah. Now, you were talking about what's coming next. You were talking about heroes. And speaking of other heroes, not long after you recorded Second Wind here in Vancouver, you got to go to New York, and you got to record with Christian McBride, who you've mentioned several times already. And someone you played with before: Carl Allen. What can you share about that at this time? Because that sounds like that's part of what's coming next.
JL: Oh my God. Yeah. So basically, Cory invited me through Carl Allen. Carl said it'd be cool, because we're going to do this trio recording at Rudy Van Gelder’s with Chris [Potter, saxophonist] and Christian, It would be really cool if John came out and just hung around. That's how it all started. Cory said, listen, Carl invited you out, and I want to take care of you. Let's go to New York. Weeds hooked it up: he paid for my... everything, he paid for my flights. I know! He really invested in me to come out there and have a bit of a a journey of sorts there, man, to say the least.
A couple of days before I was supposed to fly out, Carl said, it'd be cool if John played piano on one of these songs. We have this song called “Song for Abdullah” that needs piano. He's going to be there anyway, so he might as well play on it. So Cory hits me up and says, man, Carl wants you to play on one of these songs with Christian and Chris. What are you going to do?
I'm like, man, I'll give him my good shot, man! But I got to say, I might need a new pair of pants [laughs] at the session, man, it's going to be crazy. I show up at Rudy van Gelder’s studio. I'm like, Oh my God, this is crazy. I'm looking at the walls and just everything. And Carl's already there setting up drums and he has his drum tech there and stuff. We're all just hanging out in the control room. I got to meet Don and Maureen Sickler, who are Rudy van Gelder’s protégés and run the studio now. So then eventually Chris Potter shows up and I'm like, God, I've been listening to this guy since I was like 15. This is nuts, and he's right there. The last person to show up was Christian McBride, and Christian shows up and gives Don this big bear hug from the back.
I think that people should know about how some of these guys work, especially in this scenario: they recorded over 120 minutes of music that day. They were just banging out one-take bangers, over and over again. I'm hearing them record all this music. Crazy. They'll just do one take and be like, is that good? Oh, that's pretty good. Let's move on. Imagine how much stuff that we never heard, that we would probably deem really good, but it just didn't make it on the recording. Even this recording, I saw the track list of Carl's – the next [album that’s coming out] – and I'm like, yeah, there's all these tunes that I got to hear at the studio session and just didn't make the cut.
An artist, usually I've found in the many different people that I've worked with in my life that they are showing a specific way, and the things that they want to show that accentuate and fortify their musicianship. And if you talk about this idea of being a perfect musician, where you fill in all the cracks, it doesn't really exist as far as what I can see. You'd go to a Vancouver jam session and you would say, hey, you want to play “My Shining Hour”? And somebody says, no, I don't know it. And you go, oh, okay. And maybe some kid might be thinking in their head, he doesn't know that tune? Shouldn't every jazz guy know that tune? Or whatever...
But then you'll have these huge jazz artists like come out and they're like, okay, let's just play a random tune. And I'll say, you want to play “My Shining Hour”? And they're like, oh, I don't know it. Okay, wait a second! So there isn't a tune list [where] you must know, every great jazz artist must know these tunes?
We, in the jazz education system, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. But the truth is everyone has their own story, and it's really more about embracing and making your story as strong as possible, and just understanding that it's your own story. That’s the most important thing.
WC: That's phenomenal perspective to have gained from that trip, man. That's so cool. That's such an interesting timing and in your journey. It's like it’s the time when that message would have maximum impact on you, because you got to the point where You were ready to be in the room with them. Even if at the time, based on everything that you would have been going through in your life, if you asked yourself, maybe you wouldn't feel like you were ready. But you were, because of the experience that you had. And then when you got there, then you got to see them in a different way. That's so cool.
JL: Man. Yeah. I don't know what else to say about it. It was an amazing experience. Shout out to Weeds, of course, for hooking it up, man. He's given me a lot of die-happy moments in my life, man. It's so funny. I recorded that album Second Wind with Kenny and Peter. A couple of weeks later, I'm in Rudy Van Gelder's studio recording with Christian McBride and Chris Potter and Carl Allen. And then a week later when I'm home, I have four nights with Joe Farnsworth and Sarah Hanahan. Man, that's a good month, man! For a Vancouver local yokel such as myself, he really lets me live a little bit of my New York life here.
To be honest, I'm not a very fast-paced person. I've never in my life really wanted to live in New York. I've been to New York a ton of times. Every time I leave, when the plane's taken off, I'm like, thank God. I'm never like, no, I don't want to leave. I'm a small-town boy.
That's something that I've learned about myself getting into my 30s now. Even if somebody says, Hey, you want to go on tour for six months? 6 AM lobby call every day, we're going to be in a different place every night? God, man I don't know if that's me, to be 100% honest. I'm so glad that I was able to get working with Cory and stuff, because I feel like what I'm doing for Cellar and his business – and being a hopefully an asset to him as far as building the Vancouver jazz community and doing things to try to put all of us on the map a little bit more – it's like the perfect balance, man. Okay, next month, you'll do four nights with Mike LeDonne and Eric Alexander. But then you'll be off for a month, and then the next month we'll do Seamus Blake [...] It's the perfect pace for me as far as what I imagined my jazz life to be. I'm very happy with where we ended up, as far as keeping me sane musically but at the same time being able to be an island boy, man. I'm a pretty slow-paced guy still.
WC: The phrase that keeps coming up for me is you're in your prime man. You're in your prime.
JL: [Laughs] I’m in my prime! I hope so, man. I'm slowing down myself, too. You know when I was 22, pulling on the bass strings... man, I was like, I'm gonna pull these bass strings harder than anyone. And now I'm like, how light can I play and still get paid [laughs]? It's funny, man. As you said, I'm young in the relative large scope. But man, when you start getting into your thirties, things start changing. Your priorities change in your life. And musically, sometimes your priorities change as well.
I'm a gut string player [now]. When I was 24 years old, I was like, I would never play gut strings. Are you kidding me? McBride would never play gut strings, man. I want that fast-paced, blah, blah, blah. And now I've been playing gut strings for three years. You don't know how things change for you as far as physically. mentally, things you enjoy about music, all these things are always evolving. It turns out that as you get older, things slow down a little bit in all aspects, and I've already sort of experienced that [laughs]. I can't play as swiftly as long as I used to be able to. I still get around, but, you know.
WC: You do still get around. This has been so much fun. I could roll the tape for hours and hours. It's so great. Thank you for talking about such a wide swath of your journey right here. I'm excited to share that as part of the rollout here. Congrats on everything you're up to.
JL: Thank you, man. I appreciate it. That was fun, man.